Curse

lutz · Jun 08, 2009, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

But seriously, I'm not pretending to make any qualified judgement calls on PB vs PD, since (like I wrote) I don't make builds and I don't play mes. I'm just saying that arguing PD's superiority on the grounds that it can interrupt rez is, to be frank, retarded. If your team has enough pressure/coordination to kill something, it should have enough pressure to kill something else too.

"Nah, let's not interrupt the sigs. I mean, if we killed something already, we can just do it again. It's not like forcing a monk to base or keeping the prot down for an extra 2-3 seconds allowing you to power through the ghost does anything besides winning the game. Pfft, who wants to do that?"

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 08, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18

My answer on the dying and "res control" argument is that you've defined a very specific situation where they aren't dying hard enough or fast enough that you can't simply punish your enemy for death pact or flesh. If you drop a target from just pushing a backline to zero, either should be punished quickly if they resolve; simply push the hard res and your enemy's backline, and then push the Fleshed or Death Pact-ed target if it resolves. Death Pact and Flesh are strong but except for Death Pact on a monk, having them resolve doesn't cause people who are dying badly to stop dying badly. It's very situational if either causes a rebound.

The situation that you describe is that your enemy isn't dying as above, but exchanging your mesmer to delay the res and consequently shut down almost nothing else is your most desirable course of action. In this case, your pressure is enough that delaying a res on the deceased (likely a monk or a ritualist) is likely to force a wipe.

The obvious point is that people die would just faster with P-Block, making this particular situation more infrequent. P-Block just plain hurts enemy backlines harder. This goes contrary to your other statements:

Quote:

to wipe a team you only need to pleak channeling and shame the prot and you may aswell have pblocked him... the prot is shut down to nothing by the nonelite skills on that bar and the extreme damage prevelant in HA makes pblocks disable not as special and effective as it would be in gvg as things die without much mesmer effort.

Anyone who has played versus P-Block can speak from experience: P-Block is a far deadlier elite in terms of punishing a backline.

Your general outline for PD is that you inspire the prot's channeling, you P-Leak his channeling, you shame him. You would then rend the heal monk and then divert Patient Spirit / WoH / Life Sheath, and maybe P-Drain or P-Leak on Heal Party.

Your general outline for P-Block is: P-Block one monk. Shit your entire remaining bar on the other monk.

I tried to not oversimpify, but I'm finding it very hard to write up an expanded P-Block outline, or to understand how P-Block doesn't hurt more by a significant magnitude. P-Block makes people die much faster, period.

My second point is rather a very brief and impromptu list of ways to prevent death pact and / or a flesh (other than Psychic Distraction):

Disruption
- Agonizing Chop
- Cry of Frustration
- Disrupting Chop
- Distracting Shot
- Leech Signet
- Power Block
- Power Drain
- Savage Slash
- Savage Shot
- Tease
Knockdowns
- Earth Shaker
- Hammer Bash
- Bull's Strike
- Shock
- Trampling Ox
Other
- Smash the hard res and the monks and the res target if they somehow resolve the hard res anyways.

My response on the "PD is always available and you can pull crazy shit with it that wins you game because (did I mention) I always have it" is that you're full of shit, and I really don't even know where to start on that point.

Nadia Roark · Jun 08, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

"Nah, let's not interrupt the sigs. I mean, if we killed something already, we can just do it again. It's not like forcing a monk to base or keeping the prot down for an extra 2-3 seconds allowing you to power through the ghost does anything besides winning the game. Pfft, who wants to do that?"

As Sun Fired Blank was kind enough to point out just two short hours after your post, there's over a dozen other ways to shut down rezzes.

For the third or fourth time: PD has its uses, but arguing that it gains merit because it can interrupt rez sigs is probably one of the stupidest arguments I've heard on this forum (and that's saying a lot). Of course it can interrupt rezzes, but I'd put that ability an order of magnitude (or three) below "It can interrupt SoC/Ghost" and "It owns iway spirit spammers" in terms of skill functionality/merit.

I'm not really saying "PD blows" or anything like that; it has its uses like many other skills, but I regard PD as more of a utility build than a proper shut down one. Unless you're an iway ranger

Killed u man · Jun 08, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I agree with Nadia.

PD isn't really shutdown, in the way that you shut your INTIRE BAR down, to interrupt 1 skill on the enemy team. (Or multiple)

That's it's weakness, but also it's strength. Because if that skill happens to be Claim Resource, well, already explained....

I agree that PB probably is the better shutdown on the maps to HoH. I'm also pretty sure matches have been "won" because of a good PB on the prot or heal, unlike with PD.
However, I'm also sure MORE matches have been won because of PD on the ghostly in HoH, Courtyard, PD on snares in HoH (multiple snares) aswell as the ability to "relativly" shut down fire AoE on cap points (you'dd have to interrupt every spell, unlike PB) AND a profane at the same time. (But then again, PB will also manage to pull this off)

It's an endless arguement tough, but I think anyone experienced in HA would agree:

Holding HoH = Bring PD
Getting to HoH faster = Bring PB (Requirement = good ping -With PD it matters less)

NaturesRenewal[Deer] · Jun 09, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

However, I'm also sure MORE matches have been won because of PD on the ghostly in HoH, Courtyard, PD on snares in HoH (multiple snares) aswell as the ability to "relativly" shut down fire AoE on cap points (you'dd have to interrupt every spell, unlike PB) AND a profane at the same time. (But then again, PB will also manage to pull this off)

It's an endless arguement tough, but I think anyone experienced in HA would agree:

Holding HoH = Bring PD
Getting to HoH faster = Bring PB (Requirement = good ping -With PD it matters less)

PB is way better for snares considering that you can actually get multiple people using different snares. most teams will bring a /e with foes and grasping and aside from kds that is the limit of their snares. one pb can shut down the guy for the entire run and you can use cry/leach/diversion on the other one. If you have PD you can pretend like you are a bot that can pd mutliple 3/4 casts on different targets but in reality it doesnt happen.

Alter cap PD is better but that is really it. Also yeah if "holding hoh" was actually possible at any times aside from off times then pd MIGHT be viable but reality is hoh is based on pure luck and its impossible to consistantly win over 10 times when you are clearly the best team, as you will get ganked every other game anyway.

Skyros · Jun 10, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

216 - America > Europe
206 - Europe > America

EDIT- And in all honesty, no monk in HA is that good to require the power of a PB mes... i mean most crumble to the power of gwen interruptions on their guardian and WoHs... so although PB is quite powerful it is also unnecessary to deal with the "cream of the crop" of HA monks.

I Jonas I · Jun 11, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

216 - America > Europe
206 - Europe > America

EDIT- And in all honesty, no monk in HA is that good to require the power of a PB mes... i mean most crumble to the power of gwen interruptions on their guardian and WoHs... so although PB is quite powerful it is also unnecessary to deal with the "cream of the crop" of HA monks.

If a team has those sort of monks then you don't need to worry about losing to them in the first place

also: Why'd you leave the guild? =(

Killed u man · Jun 11, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

216 - America > Europe
206 - Europe > America

EDIT- And in all honesty, no monk in HA is that good to require the power of a PB mes... i mean most crumble to the power of gwen interruptions on their guardian and WoHs... so although PB is quite powerful it is also unnecessary to deal with the "cream of the crop" of HA monks.

Pretty sure top GvG whiped because a few Spirit Bonds and Infuse Health's got interrupted by the ranger...

Imagine that several times per match.

bursta91 · Jun 11, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I look the other team has a pblock mes. I had better cancel cast a guardian and wait 25 seconds...

Dpagona83 · Jun 11, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

just run something else and take a gwen unless you actually know what you're doing. Yesterday I was messing around on a fire ele and their PD mes decided to camp me and after he power drained my first skill (take note, camping me, as in didnt shame/diversion or cast anything on our backline) he went into pd-lock on my heats and rodgorts, I almost pissed my self imagining how good he thinks he must be and telling his team that's he's shutting down the 2sec. casting fire ele.

Skyros · Jun 12, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Pretty sure top GvG whiped because a few Spirit Bonds and Infuse Health's got interrupted by the ranger...

Imagine that several times per match.

we're def talking about ha monks aren't we?

superraptors · Jun 15, 2009, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Pretty sure top GvG whiped because a few Spirit Bonds and Infuse Health's got interrupted by the ranger...

Imagine that several times per match.

pretty sure this is ha section

no wait its ra, sorry ma bad
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